This is what Lady Gaga tells us, interviewed by Oprah Winfrey for Elle Magazine, in December 2019

Once again, Lady Gaga has proven that she is the queen of her own castle, and now she is adding Haus Laboratories, her makeup line, to her groundbreaking achievements in music and film.

At a recent gathering of first-name greats, Gaga spoke with Oprah, the multifaceted female mogul and early advocate for emotional well-being, about her exponential career path and her battles with mental health issues.

The two women see it as a personal quest to lift the stigma and shame that can surround mental illness, and the role each has played in opening up the global dialogue is undeniable: Oprah teamed up with Prince Harry earlier this year to create a documentary series that will be released in 2020. And Gaga was invited to meet with Prince William in London to discuss mental health initiatives they could work on together, but she couldn’t attend as she needed to be with her doctors.

Here, Gaga opens up to her hero about her personal growth from both pain and kindness.

Oprah: I first interviewed you almost 10 years ago in 2010 on The Oprah Winfrey Show, and I could see and feel you, energetically, blossoming into yourself. You were in this moment where you were open to your own self-discovery and self-expression. How have you become more of yourself in the last 10 years?

Lady Gaga: I think as my career has grown and changed and I’ve done different things, I’ve become very aware of my position in the world and my responsibility to humanity and to those who follow me. And I consider myself a punk of kindness. I look back at everything I’ve done, and I look at what I’m doing now, and punks, you know, have a kind of reputation for being rebellious, right? So, for me, I really see my career, and even what I’m doing now, as a rebellion against all the things that I see as unpleasant in the world. Kindness heals the world. Kindness heals people. It’s what unites us, it’s what keeps us healthy.

Oprah: When you look back over the last 10 years, at what point do you feel you were most able to express that kindness heals all things?

Gaga: I think it really started with my relationship with my fans. Looking at the audience and seeing so many people who were just like me, people who felt different, who didn’t feel seen or understood. And then seeing a lot of kids who were afraid to open up about who they were, it became an existential experience for me, where I thought about what it means to be an individual — I wanted to fight for those individuals.

I actually said this the other day on social media. I said, “I didn’t do this for the fame, I did it for the impact.” And that’s the truth. From the beginning I recognized that my impact was to help liberate people through kindness. I mean, I think it’s the most powerful thing in the world, particularly in the mental illness space.

Oprah: Did you know that since you were at New York University’s Tisch School of the Arts and retired after a year, only to pretend to be your own manager and drag your keyboard from gig to gig? So you knew that, right?

Gaga: Well, that was kind of sneaky. I don’t know if that was completely kind. But I learned from my mother, Oprah. When I came home from school, if I was bothered, she would always say, “Kill them kindly.” And maybe “killing” them is an aggressive way of saying it, but, you know, I meant it. What she meant was, “Don’t fight fire with fire; Fight fire with water.”

“From the beginning I recognized that my impact was to help liberate people through kindness. I mean, I think it’s the most powerful thing in the world.”

Skirt-dress, top, earrings, everything, Schiaparelli Haute Couture. Pants, Area. Gloves, wing gloves and weft. Bombas, Gianvito Rossi.

PHOTOGRAPHED BY SØLVE SUNDSBØ. STYLED BY TOM EEREBOUT AND SANDRA AMADOR.

Oprah: I mean I think what you’ve done the most, and the best thing, in a way that now the whole world is coming to understand, we see through social media, was starting the Born This Way Foundation. You were telling people that no matter what you are, it’s who you’re supposed to be. I want to know what advice you have for people who are still afraid to be themselves, who live a false life.

Gaga: I think I would say that, honestly, it’s not fake. If it hasn’t been revealed who you are yet, I’d have compassion for yourself that you’re not ready yet, and I’d take action every day.

Oprah: That’s really nice.

Gaga: You know, it’s very easy to tell someone, “Be brave,” but it’s not that easy to practice. I mean, if you’re ashamed of who you are and you don’t feel supported by the people around you, you’re afraid. Shame is powerful. But give yourself time. Allow yourself to take small bites every day. That’s what I would say: give it a little courage. I wouldn’t say it’s a fake life. I would say that it is a reality, and that reality can change. That’s also why I did Haus Laboratories, honestly.

Oprah: Let’s talk about this. What made you feel ready to become a beauty entrepreneur?

Gaga: I wanted to do it because (a), I had time, I wanted to put everything into it, which I do with everything I do. I don’t just create a company, I contract personally and make them do it. I said it the other night at our launch: “My fingerprints are all over this. It’s a crime scene.” And (b), I felt like I had the platform and I had built the foundation around what I stand for, so that when this company came out, it would be a rebellion in a kind way against the status quo of beauty as it is today, which is in many ways on social media, a competition. It’s a beauty pageant in many ways. This company exists in a culturally influential space where we say, “Our Haus. Your rules.” And everyone is welcome, all gender identities.

Oprah: So that’s the mission of the line, to include all gender identities?

Gaga: All gender identities, all racial identities, everybody, all ages. This is for everyone.

Oprah: Aren’t you constantly amazed at the power of beauty to uplift people? I just remember being in a hospital where women were repairing their fistulas in Ethiopia and we were handing out lipsticks, and they were literally trying to get out of bed to get to them.

Gaga: It’s very powerful, and I felt so pretty when I was young, and when I left college, my parents weren’t very happy with me at the time. I said I wanted to be a musician. I worked three jobs, paid my own rent, and went to the pharmacy to buy makeup. I experimented with color, looked in the mirror, and literally forced myself. I invented Lady Gaga. And it made me feel strong, it made me feel powerful. I’ve suffered from depression since I was a little girl, but, oh my God, the superhero that flew out of me was like Clark Kent and Superman: he gave me wings to fly. And that’s also why I refused to change. As my career progressed, even before I was famous, when people would say, “Oh, the makeup, there’s too much makeup.” It’s overhead, blah, blah, blah,” it would be like, “This is my life force. This is what helps me fly.”

Oprah: I wonder, do you still feel pressure to constantly improve yourself? Is it a shackle for you in some way?

Gaga: Not anymore. I used to, though. Oprah, I have to be on your level 100 percent: I used to try to center my brain as much as I could around what I could do… Instead of being shocking (I used to say “shock art” or “Performance art”), I would use the word “bemuse,” which basically puts the audience in a state of confusion where they can’t look away. He used to say, “What am I going to do next to get people’s attention?”

Oprah: After the meat dress, you felt like, “Where do I go from here?”

Gaga: Well, the meat dress, frankly, I didn’t think it was going to be as shocking to everyone as it was. But it’s just me. I kind of have an eccentric brain, so for me, I thought, of course, this makes sense. I come forward to make a statement about “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” I went to the event with soldiers who were discharged from the military because they were out, or they were discovered, and for me, if you’re willing to give up your life for your country, does it matter what your sexual orientation is or what your gender identity is? To me, it was like, “Flesh is meat,” so that was the intent of the meat dress. To me, that wasn’t shocking; It was shocking to the world. And I have to say that it was recently, after doing A Star Is Born and working with Bradley Cooper, and my experience even winning an Oscar, I just said to myself, “You have a much bigger mission on this earth than scaring people. Your mission is to give people a form of love through your art that uplifts them.”

Oprah: I have to ask you a question about Bradley. I was sitting in Bradley’s kitchen the other day, and he was taking care of his daughter, and we ordered takeout, and it was wonderful to watch him play father.

Gaga: He’s a beautiful dad.

Oprah: Isn’t he a beautiful father? It’s all the way. We were talking about all the rumors about you last year. He said that if they had been true, I would never have been able to look you in the eye sitting at that piano.

Gaga: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Oprah: He said his Catholic guilt would never have allowed him to look you in the eye at that piano. How did you feel about all that at the time? You handled it very well.

Gaga: Frankly, I think the press is very dumb. I mean, we play a love story. For me, as a performer and actress, of course, we wanted people to believe we were in love. And we wanted people to feel that love at the Oscars. We wanted it to go through the lens of that camera and every TV where it was being viewed. And we worked hard at it, we worked for days. We mapped the whole thing: it was orchestrated like a performance.

Oprah: I was staging it as a performance to evoke exactly what you did.

Gaga: He did. Actually, when we talked about it, we said, “Well, I guess we did a good job!”

Oprah: Very well received. You put so much energy into that movie, and then it became one of the biggest movies of the year. What was it like when it was all over? How did you say goodbye to the character of Ally and the whole experience?

Gaga: Well, actually, the character of Ally stayed with me for a long time. I had to relive a lot of my career doing that role. I don’t know how you feel when you’ve acted, but for me, I don’t see it as shooting a movie. I shot it as if I lived the character, and it’s a moment in my life, so I relived it all over again and it took a long time for it to go away. When I won the Oscar for “Shallow,” I looked at it and a reporter asked me, “When you look at that Oscar, what do you see?” And I said, “I see a lot of pain.” And I wasn’t lying at the time. I was raped when I was 19, repeatedly. Over the years, my career has traumatized me in various ways due to many different things, but I survived and kept going. And when I looked at that Oscar, I saw pain. I don’t know if anyone understood it when I said it in the room, but I did.

Oprah: The pain it had taken to get there. Because when you’re raped, particularly repeatedly and at that age, you’d have PTSD for years because of it.

Gaga: I have PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder). I have chronic pain. The trauma response of neuropathic pain is a weekly part of my life. I’m taking medication; I have several doctors. That’s how I survive. But you know what, Oprah? I kept going, and that kid out there or even that adult who’s been through so much, I want them to know that they can keep going, that they can survive and that they can win their Oscar. I would also ask anyone to try, when they feel ready, to ask for help. And I would tell others that if you see someone suffering, go up to them and say, “Hey, I see you. I see you’re hurting, and I’m here. Tell me your story.”

“Over the years, my career has traumatized me in a lot of ways because of a lot of different things, but I survived and kept going.”

Pants, Armani Privé. Balmain hat. Hoop earrings, bracelets, rings, everything, Cartier. Rings, both bralette from Tiffany & Co. Stylist.
PHOTOGRAPHED BY SØLVE SUNDSBØ. STYLED BY TOM EEREBOUT AND SANDRA AMADOR.

Oprah: What’s the best gift I think we can give each other? I mean, that’s why I think Avatar and James Cameron are one of the wizards of our generation: because of that message, “I see you.” It doesn’t get more powerful than that.

Gaga: There really isn’t. I haven’t really opened up much about this, but I think it’s an important thing for people to know and hear: I self-harmed for a long time, and the only way I could stop cutting and self-harming myself was that I had to realize that what I was doing was trying to show people that I was suffering instead of telling them and asking for help. When I realized that telling someone, “Hey, I feel like hurting myself,” that calmed him down. Then I had someone next to me saying, “You don’t have to show me. Just tell me: what are you feeling right now? “And then I could tell my story. I say this with great humility and strength. I’m so thankful she doesn’t anymore, and I wish I didn’t glamorize her. One thing I would suggest to people who struggle with trauma response or self-harm issues or suicidal ideation is actually ice. If you put your hands in a bowl of ice water, it shocks the nervous system and brings you back to reality.

Oprah: Have you also used DBT therapy?

Gaga: I actually have a teacher; I take dialectical behavior therapy. I think DBT is a wonderful way to deal with mental health issues.

Oprah: I’m asking because I’ve had a lot of girls at my school [the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls in South Africa] struggling with this.

Gaga: It’s a very strong way to learn how to live, and it’s a guide to understanding your emotions.

Oprah: It’s got to be a much longer conversation. I want to know more, what did you ever think was insurmountable, and in the end, did you realize that the solution was easy?

Gaga: I once believed there was no way to get over my trauma. I really did. I was in physical, mental, and emotional pain. And medicine works, but you need medicine with therapy to really work, because there’s a part you have to do yourself.

Oprah: Is that suffering the cause of your fibromyalgia?

Gaga: It is. Although there are many different theories about fibromyalgia, for me, my fibromyalgia and my response to trauma go hand in hand. Fibro for me is a lighter pain; The trauma response is so much stronger and really feels like I felt after I was thrown on a street corner after being raped repeatedly for months. It’s a recurring feeling. So I had a psychotic break at one point, and it was one of the worst things that ever happened to me. They took me to the emergency room and brought me to the doctor, a psychiatrist. So I just screamed and said, “Could someone bring me a real doctor?” And I didn’t understand what was happening, because my whole body went numb; I completely dissociated. I was screaming, and then he calmed me down and gave me medication for when that happened: olanzapine.

Oprah: I’m familiar with that. I have hundreds of girls, so there’s nothing you can tell me that hasn’t happened or experienced.

Gaga: yes, so I took methocarbamol and olanzapine, which is probably the most important thing, it helped me that day, and that man and all my friends saved my life.

Oprah: This is my last question: What do you think life asks of us?

Gaga: I think life asks us to accept the challenge. Take on the challenge of kindness. It’s hard in a world like we are; We have a very, very serious history. We’re in trouble, and we’ve been before. But I think life asks us in the midst of these challenges, this hatred, this tragedy, this famine, this war, this cruelty: Can you be kind and can you survive?

Designed by Tom Erebout and Sandra Amador; Hair by Frederic Aspiras for Joico; makeup by Sarah Tanno for Haus Laboratories; manicure by Miho Okawara for Miho Nails; produced by Joy Asbury at Joy Asbury